Supporting the grid with managed EV charging and V2G technology | Factor This Policycast

While some students enjoy summer break, their school buses are still hard at work. Rather than transporting pupils, they're hauling electrons and supporting the grid during critical periods of peak electricity demand.

Such is one of the tantalizing promises of vehicle-to-grid, or V2G, technology, and it's far from fantasy. More than 30 utilities across 21 U.S. states currently have V2G school bus projects, from California to Connecticut, North Carolina up to Massachusetts. Since they can charge their beefy batteries of 200 kilowatt-hours or more when power prices are low, the peak-shavers-on-wheels are proving to be a valuable tool for utilities, especially as demand surges and affordability discussions grow louder. 

And applications go beyond buses. More broadly, vehicle-to-everything (V2X) technology enables batteries to communicate with and be discharged to external systems, whether that's an electric vehicle (EV) or something else. Such virtual power plant (VPP) programs are still in their infancy, and regulatory frameworks and standards to support them are far from established, but early studies are beginning to tease out the enticing possibilities for managing EV charging and smart battery dispatch.

On this episode of the Factor This Policycast, the latest in a series presented in partnership with national business association Advanced Energy United, we dive into a world where smart charging plays a critical role in grid reliability and keeping electricity prices manageable. 

Host Paul Gerke leads a discussion between electrifying transportation policy principal Elizabeth Stears of Advanced Energy United and Leah Brams, market development manager at Highland Fleets, an electrification-as-a-service provider helping school districts, local governments, and commercial fleet owners affordably convert their traditional diesel vehicle fleets to EVs. They outline the policy reforms needed to unlock V2X's potential and identify the roadblocks to wider adoption. Brams and Stears identify how utilities can best leverage such technologies and share learnings from pilots- what works, what doesn't, and how we can refine policy to roll idling electric buses into peak-demand squashers.

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Transcript

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SPEAKER_01 0:04

We're not asking anybody to take part in these programs out of the goodness of their heart or their own nerdy desire to be a grid asset. We need to make sure that people are being properly compensated to actually want to take part in these programs to justify the additional investment in a bi-directional capable vehicle and the necessary infrastructure.

SPEAKER_00 0:20

Elizabeth's saying a nerdy desire to be a grid asset has planted this image of Ralph Wiggum from The Simpsons wearing a t-shirt that says, I'm a grid asset. Like, I'm a grid asset. And that's that's just how I'm gonna interpret that from now on. That's that desire. While some students enjoy summer break, their school buses are still hard at work. Rather than transporting pupils, they're hauling electrons and supporting the grid during critical periods of peak electricity demand. Such is one of the tantalizing promises of vehicle to grid or V2G technology. And it's far from fantasy. More than 30 utilities across 21 U.S. states currently have V to G school bus projects, from California to Connecticut, North Carolina up to Massachusetts. Since they can charge their beefy batteries of 200 kilowatt hours or more when power prices are low, the peak shavers on wheels are proving to be a valuable tool for utilities, especially as demand surges and affordability discussions grow louder. And applications go beyond buses. More broadly, vehicle to everything, or V2X technology, enables batteries to communicate with and be discharged to external systems, whether that's an electric vehicle or something else. Such virtual power plant programs are still in their infancy, and regulatory frameworks and standards to support them are far from established. But early studies are beginning to tease out the enticing possibilities for managing EV charging and smart battery dispatch. On this episode of the Factor This Policy Cast, the latest in a series presented in partnership with National Business Association Advanced Energy United, we dive into a world where smart charging plays a critical role in grid reliability and keeping electricity prices manageable. I'll be joined in just a moment by electrifying transportation policy principal Elizabeth Steers from Advanced Energy United and Leah Brahms, Market Development Manager at Highland Fleets, an electrification as a service provider, helping school district, local governments, and commercial fleet owners affordably convert their traditional diesel vehicle fleets to EVs. Together, we'll outline the policy reforms needed to unlock V2X's potential, identify roadblocks to wider adoption, and get into how utilities can best leverage such technologies. Plus, learnings from pilots, what works, what doesn't, and how we can refine policy to roll idling electric buses into peak demand squashers. Enough from me. Let's get our guests formally introduced to the growing policy cast audience. Elizabeth and Leia, can you share a little bit about yourselves and the perspective you bring to managed EV charging, B2G, and beyond? Elizabeth, let's start with you.

SPEAKER_01 3:01

Thanks, Paul. Hi, everybody. My name is Elizabeth Steers. I am the Electrifying Transportation Policy Principal at Advanced Energy United, or just United. We are a national trade association that represents businesses across the full spectrum of clean technologies. And as my title suggests, I am on the Electrifying Transportation team. So I represent our electrifying transportation members through our legislative and regulatory policy advocacy work. And a very hot topic for the past few years, and this year is definitely no exception, has been around managed charging, vehicle to grid integration and VPP programs. And I get to work very closely with a lot of our member companies, including Leia here from Highland.

SPEAKER_02 3:41

Thanks, Lizzie. Yeah, like you said, I think Highland is really a fleet electrification partner for a lot of municipalities, especially school districts. And the company was founded, yes, as a fleet electrification partner, but it was really also kind of of the mind that keeping in mind that um these vehicles are just big rolling batteries. And so while that was kind of, you know, a part of the seed of the origin of our company, it's really been kind of over the last two years that um we've seen that work really start to expand. And so I started at Highland five years ago when it was 10 people. Um, and now I think we have over 200 people. Um, and I think we're really at this kind of exciting inflection point where, you know, we've had we've had vehicle to grid charging pilots kind of ongoing for the past five years. Um, but we've really seen an upswing in the opportunities and the enthusiasm and the available technology that's kind of all coming together in this um in this exciting moment where I think we can do a lot of um really big things.

SPEAKER_00 4:56

So Highland's growth, I think, speaks to the sentiment about that larger space right now and it sort of reflects this growing excitement that you mentioned. And before we get into exactly what we're excited about, let's zoom out and talk about the tools that we're referencing here. I gave a brief explainer at the top of the show about what VitaG and Vita X is. Uh Leia, let's start with you and we'll start with Highlands Technology first. Let's talk about the tools, especially the size and scale and what that means for the grid, because we're not talking about something small here. The the Tesla Power Wall being the industry standard of home batteries, this is much larger than that.

SPEAKER_02 5:36

Yeah, yeah. And I this is the stat I love and that I always use to kind of like illustrate that. I think the average um electric school bus battery is like 200 kilowatt hours. So that's I think roughly 15 times I think the power wall is like the classic one, is like 13.5 kilowatt hours. Um so yeah, they're massive batteries on wheels. And so Highland, we work with all the major OEMs. So the three big school bus OEMs in the are all US manufactured. So Bluebird, IC and Thomas, um, and then BYD, there they have like sort of a US imprint called Ride. Um, so they have a number of vehicles in the US as well. Um, but all three of the big US manufacturers, they have V2G capable vehicles um and are also, I think, at this point really moving towards and have kind of accomplished in many cases, um, achieving kind of like the uh the industry standard protocols around, I think it's 15118-20, um, which is sort of like the interoperability communication protocol that really lets um lets you move beyond these kind of boutique solutions of, oh, well, you have to have this specific charger and that only works with this specific bus, blah, blah, blah. Um, and so I think we're really of the mind that the industry and um kind of like the available products have to get to this place and really are getting to this place where um they're kind of off the shelf able to do that communication protocol and really um serve the grid in this way.

SPEAKER_00 7:18

What about from Advanced Energy United's perspective? What do these tools promise the grid and your stakeholders?

SPEAKER_01 7:25

Well, when we look at EVs and electric school buses in particular, they are such a wonderfully flexible load, which is pretty unique, especially when we think about other sources of large load on the grid. So while a data center that's gonna be a very flat, consistent demand all the time, electric school buses and EVs, fleets, and really just that entire electrified transportation spectrum is incredibly flexible. So we can change when vehicles and buses charge, we can uh for vehicles that are bidirectionally capable, which I do want to note is not all electric school buses or all electric vehicles. So while we throw those terms around in this uh in this podcast, we are referring to ones that do have that capability. Um, but there's so many different ways that we can utilize these amazing resources, yes, as the slam dunk that they are for transportation options, uh, but also as really, really valuable grid resources. So we spend a lot of our time at United talking about kind of two sides of the same coin. How can we get the grid ready for EV adoption, but also how can we make sure that we are using EVs and the flexibility that inherently comes with EVs and electric school buses to be grid resources themselves.

SPEAKER_00 8:34

And I think that's an interesting part of it because it is sort of a double-edged sword. One of the primary drivers of electricity load growth is mass electrification. And part of that is a whole bunch of new EVs being plugged in and not just the little Nissan leaves in grandma's garage. We're talking about big fleets and big batteries that pull an awful lot of electricity. And thereby managing when those are pulling electricity and not just when they're dispatching, a lot can be gained here. What do we know from looking at studies and recent data that shows just how much value managed EV charging can provide to the grid and thereby us, the people paying in the bills?

SPEAKER_01 9:15

Yeah, so we see benefits on many different layers, both for the EV driver themselves, for the utility, and then also for ratepayers that don't own an EV or touch the vehicles at all. So if we're using the example of managed charging, so this is for a vehicle that we can even say that tiny leaf in someone's grandma's garage. The way, because we can use different market signals to influence when and how somebody charges their vehicle while still maintaining the base necessary element of remembering that these are somebody's mode of transportation is incredibly powerful. So within managed charging, they're kind of two major buckets. Uh, and of course, this is a dramatic oversimplification of these amazing technologies. But we have passive managed charging, which is using things like TOU rates or time of use rates, which I'm sure pretty much every energy customer is pretty familiar with. But the idea of using set schedules and clear market signals and costs for those electrons during certain hours of the day to influence folks to charge at other times. So that alone can already be really effective because we are lowering that peak, the demand peak on the grid. But we also see things like active managed charging, which is the other kind of half of the bucket where things get a little bit more exciting. So this can be using real market data to allow a charger to save money for the individual by only charging the vehicle overnight when it is most cost effective, which saves that driver money. It also saves the utility, the need to increase generation during these peak zones because we're moving the charging outside of that. And by lowering the pressure on those spikes in the grid, we're also helping those other grid customers because EVs, if we just, if everybody plugged in at the exact same time, which is always the fear scenario that's kind of thrown out there, yes, we would create these massive spikes and would create increased costs for all ratepayers. But because EVs are so flexible, uh, we really have a ton of flexibility in shifting and manipulating these charging patterns to really get a win on all three levels of the customer or the EV driver, the utility, and other ratepayers.

SPEAKER_02 11:18

I think that's only kind of multiplied at a fleet level because you really have the kind of business case of, you know, you want to avoid demand charges, you want to take advantage of any time of use rates or other kind of market pricing if it's available. Um, and you really like know where those vehicles are gonna be at every hour of the day. I think I get kind of frustrated sometimes by this like very American mindset of, you know, I I gotta have my car that has its 500 miles of range in case I drop everything and go on the Great American Road Trip at a moment's notice. Um, which it's like you're not actually gonna like go on the great American road trip if it's not. Um but I think that very kind of American mindset of like my car must be available to me at any time. Um which I think has limited just from an anecdotal level, um, some of the personal vehicle EV uptake. But from a fleet, like a fleet vehicle perspective, especially something like electric school buses, where they have very set routes. Um they literally like, I mean, they're carrying kids, so like they have to know where they're gonna be at like every minute of the day. Um, you know, there's never gonna be any demands on those vehicles that are unanticipated, pretty much. And so you can really um you can really like tailor exactly when you're charging. And we do um like we we do demand response and um curtailment at every single site that we have because otherwise we would be getting hit with massive demand charges. Um and I think like say there's a half day coming up and they have to charge faster, or like in a in a smaller period of time in the middle of the day if they need midday charging. So there's like kind of all of these little considerations, but you're really able to plan um and like minimize your costs and you're super incentivized to minimize your cost because it is like a public school budget at the end of the day. Um and so I think fleets are kind of ahead of the ball in a lot of ways on um taking advantage of a lot of these like sort of like E B flexibility opportunities.

SPEAKER_00 13:31

Yeah, it's like putting a magnifying glass on it, right? It's like all of the same issues and considerations, but magnified to the nth degree. The one thing you didn't mention, Leia, that I think is an important part of leveraging those school buses is that we've got the summer to work with. And when we talk about peaky electricity prices and the biggest demand on the systems when all those air conditioners are cranking on hot, humid days, you kind of wish you had a bunch of big batteries you could roll to areas of grid congestion and relieve a little bit of that. And that's exactly what Highlands Technology provides. Can you tell me a little about how the flexibility of just being able to roll those things somewhere is in itself a really unique and useful feature?

SPEAKER_02 14:13

Yeah. So I mean, I think what you're getting at is there's like two major benefits to having a mobile battery that's um, you know, not being used for other things in the summer. I think, you know, the primary thought is the um like generation transmission costs that you can get. So like, for example, we've been participating in the Connected Solutions program for the past five years, I think, since the summer of 2021, something like uh like 40 megawatt hours total of power that we've or 40 megawatt hours of energy total that we've dispatched through that program. Um and that is like a I mean, it's a primarily a demand response program that we're just basically going negative on and like sending power back, like not only caretelling, but then also sending power back in those hours of peak demand. Um but you know, that's that's really pricing around um, you know, capacity constraints. And then there's this like kind of secondary level of value that you can get from the distribution grid value. So that's stuff like okay, you know, this feeder is constrained, this substation is constrained, it we can install this additional load on it, but if it's also um, you know, a generation source as well as a load, um, then we can maybe we can put off upgrading this substation five years, 10 years, whatever. Um, so there's that kind of distribution value as well. And so you see programs like the like A VPP program in Colorado. So that's the aggregated virtual power plant program, I think, Lizzie. Um, and they have that transmission generation value, but then they also have kind of like a distribution grid adder on top of that. So it's like if you build on, and I mean that's a VPP program. So it's like, yes, it's EB B2G is eligible for it, but it's primarily like, you know, curtailment, you know, like aggregated thermostats, things like that, um, or you know, battery storage. But if you build on those, they basically have like a list of constrained feeders that they have. And if you build on those constrained feeders or if you curtail on those constrained feeders, um, then you get something. I think it's like an additional 50, I don't know if the numbers in front of me, but I think it's like an additional $50 a kilowatt year. So you get up to nearly $300 a kilowatt year if you're on that constrained feeder and you're also dispatching power. So um, and you know, we're like we're making decisions around which one of our sites in Colorado, in XL Colorado territory we're trying to in we're trying to install B2G capable chargers in part based off of that distribution value. And so I think I I I I think it's just like it's I think it's a really good idea. And it's um I think it's it's the piece of the value stack there that I think is overlooked a little bit more.

SPEAKER_01 17:17

So we're talking a lot about the you know, the obvious value that comes during the summer for electric school buses, but I definitely want to make sure we're not minimizing the value that they can still provide throughout the entire year. So another sort of magical thing about electric school buses in particular that puts them above other fleets in terms of kind of the value they can provide here.

SPEAKER_00 17:35

I see you, Miss Frizzle. I see what you're doing with the magic school bus. Go on.

SPEAKER_01 17:39

I love it. Um, but uh we uh when a school bus comes back to its depot at the end of the day, that's usually around like four or five PM when the rest of the population is coming home and we're seeing those really big spikes on the grid. And so not only are they available, most school buses are available during the summer to be able to be utilized kind of full blast as a battery resource, they also are so uniquely positioned to help bring down, yes, scary summer peaks, um, but also just those daily peaks that we can see from just normal consumption, uh, which is really exciting.

SPEAKER_02 18:13

Yeah. And I mean, the Connected Solutions program that we participate in is summer only, but we also have been participating in, I think it's called the Flexible Load Management Program in Green Mountain Power Territory in Vermont with our South Burlington Public Schools project for the past three years. And that's a year-round program. So I think it's calling something like six years or 100 events throughout the entire year. And so the buses are basically getting back at, you know, 4 p.m. whenever. And then if there's an event that's called, um, for that one, we have like our kind of software system is integrated with the utility software system. And so if they put out a call, then it will kind of automatically screen the buses and be like, okay, what percentage of charge do they still have? What's kind of like the lowest that we're willing to go there? Um, and then it will kind of return to the utility, okay, we have this many um kilowatt hours available to you. And then it will sort of dispatch automatically through that. So it's like a lower amount of energy, it's a lower amount of energy than if it was just, you know, it was charged to 100%. Um, but it's not nothing. And I think that is also significant in the kind of as we move to more of a winter peaking environment with more and more electrification. Um, you know, New England is maybe moving towards a winter peaking environment. Um, we work with, you know, lots of school districts and utilities in the South where they have a winter peak. Um, and so there it's like, yes, they're interested in this summer dispatch, but they're also really interested in opportunities for kind of like winter dispatch as well.

SPEAKER_01 19:47

So important to design programs that understand both the benefits and the challenges of all of the DERs that are included and being able to allow this flexibility where like not all school district uses their bus, they don't, not all school districts use their buses the same way. Um, but allowing some of that flexibility and diversity of programs is so critical to make sure we're like fully tapping into all of the yes magic of the school bus.

SPEAKER_00 20:10

You guys over at Advanced Energy United have, as you always do, tried to make things as easy as possible for all of the disparate stakeholders to try to figure out how they can take advantage and fit into this larger ecosphere. You've provided an EV ready grid guidebook that helps states focus on crafting the right policies to support vehicle-to-grid technology and virtual power plants. I would love to talk to Leia a little more in just a second about the ways utilities are thinking about VPPs and more about the pilots that she referenced just a second ago. But before we get there, since this is the policy cast after all, I do want to talk about legislation. What have we seen so far and what type of policies are the ones that are the right ones, the winners to make sure that we're adopting technologies like this?

SPEAKER_01 20:55

Ooh, so that's a tricky question. Uh so first, give the quick plug to the EV ReadyGride Guidebook. So this is a resource that if any of you listeners want to kind of dig in deeper into any of these topics we're talking about, um, whether it's specific types of managed charging, compensation models, uh, utility business model reform, whatever it may be. The EV Ready Grid Book is a collection of resources that really give you that double click in to understand these technologies and policies at a deeper level and also give you examples and action of where we're already seeing successes there. So I definitely recommend checking them out, whether it's a new topic to you or something that you just want to try to implement in your own state. We also at the end of August are going to be uh releasing sort of accompanying resources that we're calling our EV memos, which is digging into the 19 different focus states that United has and giving really tailor made recommendations for those states and meeting them where they are. So saying, like, hey, this is what you're already doing, great. Um, these are the logical next steps that you need to take because it's one thing to constantly be putting certain states or certain policies on a pedestal, but it's hard that like, So, yes, we should celebrate the wins that Colorado has for um electrified transportation. But that's tricky if you then look to Rhode Island and they're like, hey, we are quite a few steps behind that. How am I supposed to reach there? So creating those logical steps of how to reach to that next stage is really, really important. So keep an eye out for those as well. I think what makes a good policy is understanding what the problem is that you're trying to solve. So for some of these virtual PowerPoint programs or managed charging programs, if they're trying to focus on shifting away from existing peaks, then that's one form of design. If they're trying to like kind of create a new form of generation or push off other grid upgrades, that's a different type of program design. And the way we see electric vehicles play in these programs varies depending on that policy goal. So some only allow EVs to participate through managed charging, so reducing that peak, while others are actually allowing them to participate as full grid resources, so through their V2G capabilities. We definitely want to be advocating for the latter for all of the benefits of EVs to be able to be used within a policy. But an exciting thing is that most of these policies are pretty new. So while some programs already exist and we're now fighting to try to get EVs included to expand the goals of that program, for a lot of states, things are brand new and are very, very fresh. And so we're getting to work on the ground level with companies like Highland, as well as our other members that represent the non-EV DERs or distributed energy resources to figure out how we're properly accommodating for all these technologies. And yeah, I feel like I talk about VPPs every single day. They are like the hot topic of the year. Um, even just that acronym like no longer has any meaning in my brain because I say it so often.

SPEAKER_02 23:47

Um, but it's not well, and and because I feel like it's used, it's used kind of like post humorously. I don't know if that's the right word, but it's like it's used kind of like post uh like a previous understanding of a word. Like now people are calling connected solutions a VPP, where it's just like because that is kind of like it's so funny or everything's a VPP now.

SPEAKER_01 24:10

Right. Well, which is part of why it makes it so hard to say what a good program is, because it's like, how do we define a VPP in the beginning? And so that's yeah, that's kind of what I was alluding to in the beginning of like these different goals that now this bucket or umbrella, I guess, of a VPP is getting kind of bigger and bigger and bigger. It's a trough.

SPEAKER_00 24:25

It's just a big old hole of virtual power plant possibilities now.

SPEAKER_02 24:29

It's I actually want I want to give a shout-out to Energy Hub had like a really good white paper um on kind of like parsing out the different like levels of VPPs. Um, I forget if that was the exact word that they used, but they had um one of their the people who worked there came up with this sort of like they I think they called it like a Hewl's test or something like that, which is um like the ultimate goal of a VPP is from the grid operator side, you don't see any difference between a VPP and like a traditional power plant. Um, but I it kind of lays out different levels so that you're kind of able to understand, like, okay, like um maybe a connected solutions like program would be at a certain level where there's like more of a um, you know, an active role to take versus something that's at a more kind of higher level aggregated level, might be kind of like a higher level BPP or something like that. So I don't know if you link things in this, Paul, but I I think that's a great resource for sure.

SPEAKER_00 25:25

Well, I have to now, now that you've thrown that out there. Plus, we've got the grid guidebook that Elizabeth was just talking about. So that's two links. Keep them coming. Make sure we get them in there for the viewers and the listeners. Um, Elizabeth, you were continuing about what makes good policy. And then I want to hear what what Leia has to think about that too, because I know that she's intimately involved in the actual gunk works of what makes up those legislation uh sessions.

SPEAKER_01 25:47

Well, it so I guess like a good policy, it it kind of also breaks down. I realize I'm adding so many caveats to this of what actually makes a good policy. Um, but it's a tricky question. So there's both like a good bill and good legislation, and then it comes to the actual implementation of that bill, and that can create its own kind of new set of challenges. But if we're talking about a good bill, um, a bill that I really love and that we're really proud of at United is the Drive Act in Maryland. So this was in 2024. This was the first of its kind in the nation to require utilities to enable the interconnection of bi-directional capable vehicles to the grid. So this was really setting that standard. And we're seeing a lot of echoes of this policy and this bill in other states as they're starting to tackle this challenge on their own. And part of what made the Drive Act successful, at least as a bill, is that it really followed both a technical and an economic pathway within the bill. So, yes, on the technical side, it enabled interconnection. It also had expedited interconnection standards for bi-directional vehicles. So it helped actually set the groundwork to get these technologies to actually be able to participate in the grid. But then it also captured the very critical other side of the economic pathway of starting to flesh out some of the compensation models that are necessary within these programs. Because we, and we being the industry, not necessarily united, uh, are under no delusion that people are not, like we're not asking anybody to take part in these programs out of the goodness of their heart or their own nerdy desire to be a great asset. We need to make sure that people are being properly compensated to actually want to take part in these programs, to justify the additional investment in a bi-directional capable vehicle and the necessary infrastructure. So we need to make sure that that compensation model is properly fleshed out and is actually effectively drawing people into the program and making it valuable and worth their time to be there. So the Drive Act was, it covered a lot of things. Um, but those sort of sort of like two of the major buckets that I think we are seeing replicated over and over in other states. And then now our team is working on the implementation phase of this policy and actually working with utilities to get into the nitty-gritties of like, it's great to say there should be compensation. What does that mean? Um, and actually getting into those little bits. So it was definitely a legislative win. And now we're we're hoping to continue it into a regulatory win, but making sure that EVs are not being sidelined in the process is a really, really critical part of that fight.

SPEAKER_00 28:08

Leah, before you dive in, I just have to say that Elizabeth's saying a nerdy desire to be a grid asset has planted this image of Ralph Wiggum from The Simpsons wearing a t-shirt that says, I'm a grid asset. Like, I'm a grid asset. And that's that's just how I'm gonna interpret that from now on. That's that desire. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:25

As usual. And there are some people who probably would. Like you can look at similar patterns in really early stage adoption of Rooftop Solar, where like the math wasn't there, but people really believed in the in the program and the idea. So they wanted to be a part of it. Um, so we see the same thing with some individuals wanting to do that with their light duty vehicle, whether or not it makes economic sense of them like really wanting to be a part of it. Uh, but we are definitely not assuming that that is everybody, and that also definitely shouldn't apply to things like schools that are a public entity and need to be serving their students primarily. So, yeah, some people want to be a great asset, but we don't want to require people to.

SPEAKER_02 29:03

I have a lot of thoughts clearly. I think the the way we sort of like like blanket break the policies that you see vehicles participating in overall are sort of like pay for performance or like where you're getting compensated for actually doing something versus the kind of upfront capital incentives where it's like the utility or the state or whoever is kind of giving you a bunch of money to like install a bunch of stuff. Um, and then probably there's some stipulations around testing and things like that. And so for that second category, I think that's kind of where we've seen a lot of V2G projects get built out in the past. So, you know, Duke, North Carolina had a um an EV electric school bus and charger pilot over the past three years, um, where they, I think they deployed something like 26 buses. Um there's, yeah, there's just uh Massachusetts, the Mass EC pilot right now. They have kind of like a school bus side and then like a light duty um personal vehicle side. Um there's a Ben Dominion, a couple of other utilities as well. We're helping. I'm not sure if I'm I mean, we have the contracts are signed and everything, but I feel like we haven't talked about it super publicly. But we have two different um utility pilots that were um kind of being an implementer, an implementation partner. So um we're basically installing a couple of chargers and working with the utility to do testing, things like that. And we've done that previously with Pepco and with Excel Colorado like three or four years ago, where you know it's just like the equipment's there, but it's not actually being used in an existing program or really used as a grid asset. It's more like well, now I can't stop thinking about the I'm a grid asset thing.

SPEAKER_00 30:52

I'm so sorry.

SPEAKER_02 30:53

Yeah, I know. Um, but I think all of that is great, but I kind of think like there comes a time where it's like there's been enough testing. You know, it's like I think one thing that we struggle with is you know, every utility context is is different and every grid is different and every kind of operating system is different. But I think we have gotten to a point with the technology, especially around um electric school bus VDG, where like we have proved that it works in in the connected solutions pilot with Beverly Public Schools over the past five years. Averaging over those five years, we have 95% participation rate. So the technology is clearly there. And and I think we we kind of need to move towards more of a structure where it's like a pay-for-performance structure where um, you know, there's a market structure and the energy is being valued, whether it's at a you know, generation transmission capacity value or a distribution grid value. Um, and if you're able to show up, you get paid. And maybe there's like a 80% cut point or something like that, where if you fall below a certain level of participation, you get kicked out of the program. I don't know. Some people hate that, some people love it. But that I think that kind of I think assuages some of the fears around you know, utilities have around and grid operators have around planning for this stuff, and then if it doesn't show up at all, then that's an issue. Um but I think the two kind of things that I think we really need to move towards is number one, having it be pay for participation. So then you don't have those issues around, you know, either using taxpayer dollars or ratepayer dollars to pay for a lot of upfront equipment that then, you know, it takes a while for that benefit to come back. And um there's fear around, okay, if a private developer takes this money, then they have the money. What, you know, what incentive do they have to actually utilize the equipment and serve the grid needs? Um, and then do you have to go through a clawback proceeding or something like that? It's just like it's much cleaner if it's pay for performance and if you show up, then you get paid and it's valued at this level. And I think the thing that goes really hand in hand is in that with that is really viewing EVs as just another grid asset. So I think there's a lot of good intentions around saying, okay, we have to have a specific vehicle to grid pilot as opposed to having one, you know, VPP with battery storage and thermostats and EVs. I think there's there's some fear of the unknown around the EV piece of it. And I think a lot of that comes from them being like mobile. Um, so like maybe they won't show up, but I think especially like we've talked about with fleet vehicles, they're gonna show up. They're they have to be plugged in at the same time every day. And so there's the exact same risk of them not showing up that there is in a battery not showing up. Like maybe it doesn't work, but or like maybe it has some sort of technical malfunction, but it's it's not gonna not show up just because it has wheels on it. Um, and so I think moving towards a structure where from a utility view, from a grid operator view, EVs are viewed as like just another grid asset as opposed opposed to like a siloed resource that needs its own special program, I think that's really the the direction that we need to move towards if you're going to see deployment at scale. Um, and I think it has like good intentions behind it. But I think ultimately if you want this sort of like build it and they will come market signal for manufacturers and for um, you know, more regular folks to deploy this stuff, that's kind of really the direction that we need to go in.

SPEAKER_01 34:39

And I think like an important, like that's so so critical, what Leia just said there, of like not treating EVs and not siloing them away as a separate type of technology. And that's critical both in this moment right now for EVs, but it's also really important for the longevity of these programs. And so the way we define DERs within these various policies is really critical because we want to make sure that we're being specific enough that pol or that technologies like EVs can't be sidelined just because it feels scary because they have wheels. Um, but uh it's um it also keeps the door more open for future technology. So as we continue to develop new DERs, we want to make sure that they can also take part in these programs without having to retrofit these policies over and over and over as soon as there's a new exciting thing.

SPEAKER_02 35:26

I feel like nobody is talking about how crazy it is that in the past 10 years, like grid scale storage and just like battery, like commercial battery storage in general has I I mean, I one of my favorite books is um it's called The Grid. I think it's by Gretchen Bach. I just finished another link. This is like one of my all-time favorite books, and it she's an anthropologist, and it's basically like an ethnography of the grid, um, which is like I think one of the best all-time writing structures. There's another, there's a great anthro uh ethnography of the um the New York Sanitation Department called Picking Up, which Elizabeth, I think I recommend that you read next. Um but anyway.

SPEAKER_00 36:12

The Policy Cast Book Club being born right before us.

SPEAKER_02 36:15

Anyways, I'm I'm off how to change it. But the reason I brought up the grid is because it was published in 2016 and she's basically like everything she's talking about and the challenges that the grid is facing, it's told, I think the two big things that are changed are like the whole like large load conversation around data centers and things like that. Obviously, not there at all. She's like, it's in a kind of like a pe a pre-load growth period. But the other big thing she talks about is like if we had storage, if we had batteries, life would be so different. And now it's like 10 years later and we have batteries and we have storage. And I think that is like just like such a it's just the sort of thing where it's like, yeah, exactly to your point, Lizzie. Like we have no idea what sort of resources are gonna be available in 10 years. Um and so with the rate of change that's necessary for policy and regulation to be borne out, obviously you have to actually show up and be reliable to be compensated and to be relied upon. But I think setting up a structure where that's relatively technology agnostic and where like if you're able to prove your ability to show up, then you can be compensated like anyone else. Um I think it just goes to show that it's like that's that's kind of the way to do it.

SPEAKER_01 37:26

Yeah. Things can move from science fair to a real grid, like viable technology in the blink of an eye. So it's really good.

SPEAKER_00 37:34

The battery storage is a great example of that. I was just reading something from IEA recently that showed that utility scale battery storage in the US has about tripled just since 2024. I mean, we write all the time on Factor This about what ERCOT is doing and how they went from Winterstorm Uri to having 20 gigawatts of headroom in their system during their peakiest of all time peaks because of batteries. And when we're talking about 200 kilowatt hour batteries, we're not talking about the same, you know, uh, you know, gigawatt uh hour scale stuff that that ERCOT has hooked up. But I mean, these things add up quick, and we're not talking about one bus, we're talking about fleets of them. And I think what can be realized here in totality needs to be recognized too. We're talking about what these individual systems can can gain or what a feeder might be able to do with a bus. But I think zooming out, there's been some recent data that came out of Grid Lab, UC Davis, a big report about flexible load in California. They found that enrolling just 10%, one in 10% of the state's EVs into some sort of V to G program by 2036 would open up about nine gigawatts of 12-hour storage, which is about a third of the state's entire long-duration storage procurement target. Back up a little bit, 2024, Braddle Group did a report about virtual power plants more broadly in California and guesstimated savings at the consumer level of north of $550 million. I think it's it's actually more than that now with recent data. Um, but but we're talking about big influential stuff that, as you both have alluded to, could only get bigger. As we sort of, you know, get to this point where the load growth conversation is just going to keep getting louder, and we're trying to find more and more short-term solutions to, you know, get us by as we wait for transmission build-out and some large-scale generators to come online. Um, what role do you guys see virtual power plants or or maybe just V2G or V to X, you know, go ahead and pick your pick your poison playing in in this national conversation?

SPEAKER_01 39:29

The status quo is the most expensive option. And so by not managing these loads, um, so both like managing the load of the EVs actually taking power from the grid, if we're not doing that, um we're gonna be making things significantly more expensive. Um, but also by leaving these electrons on the table by not taking advantage of the amazing battery capacity that already exists within our electrified fleets is really a missed opportunity. So that's why we're constantly telling utilities and legislators that we need to start planning now, not only to be able to meet these demands, but to make the most of it and to not increase costs for everybody on the table.

SPEAKER_00 40:05

Leia, I know you've worked a lot with utilities, and um you know, I'm sure that it's not just as black and white, is we want to do a fleet thing and take advantage of this fleet program in this state. What have you learned about working with utilities of all shapes and sizes with really unique use cases and needs?

SPEAKER_02 40:22

Because we're because we're building out projects kind of all over the US, and this is V2G aside, um I think especially with like the EPA Clean School Bus Program, which really actually rewarded some more like rural fleets um or like low-income areas. We I would say have a project in the majority of IOU service territories, and so at least have a relationship with the utility on kind of like a building a project level. Um, and then we also have we have projects with a ton of munis and co-ops. Um and I think there are advantages and disadvantages in like different areas of the business um in working with different utilities on different things. I think the smaller utilities and and especially like the munis and co-ops, I think they have a flexibility and an agility to build out some of these things and try new things that because they're not being regulated by the PUC, um, because they have just like I would say just like a much smaller footprint, obviously, they're able to be a little bit more creative and flexible. Um we've had we've had a couple of um of projects, especially in Massachusetts, because we're our kind of headquarters is in Massachusetts, our first project was in Massachusetts. And a lot of Massachusetts is um served by Munis. Um I grew up in a town where and they're small, they're like, it's like you know, just just the town footprint. Um and so they're able to get creative around say, okay, you're gonna send power back at this time for this many hours, and this is how we're valuing generation and transmission, and we'll just you know split the cost at like a certain level. So it's super straightforward. Um, and they kind of in a lot of cases have the agency to do that. They don't have to go get approval from the PUC. That being said, you know, you can't if it's a if it's a munium, Massachusetts, like there's the one school district in that district, in that um, in that town, and then you know, you can't really expand that to scale it at all. Um, so I think our work with larger IOUs in some states, you know, I've talked about Excel a bunch of times with Excel, with National Grid, um done a bunch of work with Duke, with Georgia Power, it's kind of like all across the spread in terms of you know, vertically integrated utilities, um, distribution-only utilities, um, lots of different states in terms of their goals as at at the kind of like overall parent company level. Um but I think the biggest the biggest learnings that we've had is, and I think Lizzie, you were talking about this earlier, but really understanding like what are the challenges that this utility is facing, what is kind of like the barrel that they're staring down in terms of like their fears or like hopes for the next 10 years, and you know, how can we how can we help them solve those? And what are like existing tools or frameworks that we can like either work within or use as reference points to kind of like what we're trying to do and sort of trying to make um make this up as much of like a kind of smooth, smooth ramp up as opposed to kind of like a oh, we're dropping this fleet here and we want to, you know, do grid do do. Fleet things, um, or whatever you said, Paul.

SPEAKER_00 44:02

So do fleet stuff. Yeah, I'm a grid asset and doing fleet stuff. Those are the two takeaways. We're we're gonna we're gonna do a book club now and we're gonna start a link exchange and we're gonna sell some merch, it sounds like it. We're moving, we're gonna be moving t-shirts here.

SPEAKER_01 44:15

I can't wait.

SPEAKER_00 44:17

Elizabeth, uh, are you buying what we're selling?

SPEAKER_01 44:19

Yeah, 100%. And then uh acknowledging that like slight tangent here, but Leah, we've been talking a lot about how like how do we get utilities comfortable with these programs? But I'm curious at Highland, how do you reverse that conversation and get schools who themselves are not energy companies on board with these programs that are objectively very wonky?

SPEAKER_02 44:41

Yeah, I mean not to like transition into being like a shill for Highland, but yeah, sorry, Paul, if I'm diverting us.

SPEAKER_00 44:50

I just No, you're the moderator now. This is actually your gig. You take us home.

SPEAKER_01 44:54

It's Lizzie's podcast. We talk so much about utilities who are energy experts and getting them comfortable. And it's like, oh, what about the teachers? How do we get them? I love it.

SPEAKER_00 45:01

It's a great question.

SPEAKER_02 45:02

Yeah, I mean, I think our our general business model, and this this depends project to project, but our general business model is that they pay kind of like a flat contract, and we build the project, we own the we own the buses, we own the chargers, the meters in our name, we do all the energy infrastructure and um we work with the utilities. And so like we get the bill, and we've done some energy modeling assumptions around what we think that power is gonna cost. If if there's like a snow day, or I guess a snow day is a bad example, if there's a late start and um, you know, the buses are able to charge for less time in the middle of the day and we get like hit by a demand charge, that's that like we're the ones paying for that. And so we're super heavily motivated to diminish our costs in terms of energy management as much as possible. And so the nice thing about V2G and all of this, like Kurtelma and stuff like that, is that from the school district perspective, it's like as long as they have plugged in the bus, and that is at times harder to do than what you think like sometimes you plug it in, it's not actually all the way plugged in, and that's a problem, real life problems. Yeah, as long as it's plugged in, all of the rest of it happens remotely through the software, basically. Um and I think so. There's really like there's no downside from the school district perspective. I think there are when we started doing this, maybe there were some more concerns around battery degradation and like if you're cycling the battery a ton, what does that do? We haven't really seen that bear out pretty much at all. Um and so I don't think that, especially in the context of like how much you can get compensated for dispatch in a lot of these cases, um, it doesn't have any more impact than if you were just to charge it and then run it around town all day and then charge it again. It's it's basically the same impact in terms of battery degradation. So but I think all I think the thing that is challenging is if a school district were doing this on their own, I think finding the right partners in terms of you do need kind of like a software platform that's gonna be that's gonna work really well. Um, and then there will be, there's anxiety around, oh, if we don't plug it in correctly, will we get penalized for not participating? Um, what if it discharges and then it doesn't switch back to charging after the after the session is done and then we get there in the morning and the bus is dead? Um, I think there are concerns around that that I think are, you know, understandable because it's it's a new technology.

SPEAKER_00 47:43

All right, guys, we're running out of time here on the fact of this policy cast, as engaging as this conversation is, and I feel like Leia, you could just pull out two or three more utility use cases every time I go to you, whether I pose the question or not. You've it seems like you're an endless resource of knowledge with how those utilities, big and small, are thinking about these problems. Um before we say goodbye and go out into that good night, I would love to leave our viewers and listeners with maybe some key takeaways from each of you, or maybe something you wanted to talk about on the show, and then the other two of us spent 45 minutes blathering and you didn't have a chance to. This is your platform to use for that. Um, Elizabeth, we haven't heard from you in a second. Do you want to get us started and sort of leave a uh a final bit of nugget or wisdom for our uh audience about the potential of these programs or maybe how they're coming together, or what you'd like to see if you had yourself a magic wand?

SPEAKER_01 48:32

Ooh, if I had a magic wand.

SPEAKER_00 48:34

I gave you too many options there.

SPEAKER_01 48:35

I know, it's okay. Uh no, ultimately, like I'm I'm a happy camper. Um, like I said earlier, that the status quo is the most expensive option. So that is something we just say pretty much every day. Um, and both for legislators and regular and regulators, um, and just encouraging people to plan early, start thinking about these programs, um, ignore the fact that school buses have wheels, you know. Um, I don't know, there's so many little things I could say, but uh ultimately this is a really, really exciting lane of work. And it's uh both exciting and an honor to be able to be on the ground floor in a lot of these states and help to build these policies from nothing. And uh I'm excited to see how that keeps going. And we couldn't do anything without our members and without the guidance of folks like Highland who actually are telling us how these things work in reality. And that's part of why I was so curious like how you talk about this with schools, because it's one thing for policymakers for us to come up with these like pie in the sky wonderful magic wand ideas. But if it doesn't actually work for the folks on the ground and for you companies that are making it real, it's all for nothing. So um yeah, I'm excited to be in the conversation and be a part of all this. It's a it's a good time to be alive and to be an EV nerd.

SPEAKER_00 49:47

It's a good time to be a grid asset, right, Leia?

SPEAKER_02 49:50

That's what my shirt says. You can't see it, but it's a good time to be a grid asset. Um and I wanted to definitely, I can't believe I didn't see this before, but I mean AEU is a big part of why we're able to kind of have our voice heard and our perspective in terms of the reliability of electric school buses for V2G um and like the availability of medium heavy duty fleets to participate in this stuff. Like I'm the only one, or like I guess myself and one other team member are the only people who are focusing on explicitly this kind of like energy-related policy work. Um, we have a much larger team that focuses more on like direct um, you know, just like fleet transportation and more on the transportation side of things. And so the ability to work with AU and um, you know, intervene in regulatory dockets and um, you know, engage with legislators in a bunch of different states has been, you know, that's like the only reason why we're able to get our voice heard pretty much, because I um it's just me, you know. I I'm I'm I'm just a girl. Um but I think the last thing that I wanted to say, and I know that I've been talking so much. No, it's all the last thing I want to say. If I had a magic wand.

SPEAKER_00 51:02

That's actually what this is all about. Is uh I don't know if you've heard of podcasts before, but the whole people just talk and sometimes they talk for a really long time and don't go anywhere. So I think you've been great, but anyway, continue.

SPEAKER_01 51:11

Yeah, your well is so neat. It's amazing.

SPEAKER_02 51:13

If yeah, if I had a magic wand, I think all of this V2G stuff we've been talking about is really in the context of DC V2G, so DC fast chargers. Um and that's great for medium heavy duty fleets. We're usually installing level three chargers anyways. There are some exceptions to that, but for a personal vehicle user, they're not installing a 60 KW DC fast charger in the garage. Like they could, but it would be insanely expensive. Like most of the people who are you know lucky enough to be able to have at-home chargers, and I'm an EV driver, I'm public charging all the way. You can do it, it's great. But an outlet in my garage. Yeah, there you go. But the the level two charger that you put in, it shouldn't, it's you know, it's five, it's five hundred dollars, it's a thousand dollars, it's it's not you know, tens of thousands of dollars, which is what you're looking at usually for a DC fast charger install. And so we're not gonna get light duty, you know, resi customer participation in these programs at scale until there's an AC V2G option. I think Tesla maybe has um has something rolling out where they're doing that they're doing with their cyber trucks that's AC V2G. But um I think that's the thing that I get frustrated with where there's this perception that Vita G doesn't work because it's really stymied on the cost side at the rese level. Like the the math doesn't work, the economics don't work at until we have an AC option, really. Um but it does work on the fleet side because you're installing these DC fast chargers anyways. And so it's really, you know, a small adder for DC capability, usually, and then the cost of interconnection, which usually will pay for itself if you have a program that's like 150 KW um, 100 sorry, $150 per kilowatt year or something like that. And so I think that is the gap that we have to close before things like that grid lab study you're talking about in terms of like light if if you know, if all the light duty vehicles were able to do V2G. And they can, you know, they can already do demand response. They can already, you know, curtail their load during peak, peak hours. Like nobody should be charging their EV during those hours. And so I think it's like being flexible with those um, you know, those structures that utilities, those pricing structures that utilities are using in the intervening years, and then like trying to get to ACB to G as fast as possible. Um and and interoperability. But I I can go on and on. I have I have many gripes, but I'll stop now.

SPEAKER_00 53:55

We're just gonna leave a list of links at the end that is just all of the stuff Leah wants to throw in that she wanted to get to. Um no, this is great, and I think you gave our listeners and viewers a lot to chew on here and ways that they can advance this conversation once they close this podcast window. And it is about that time. Unfortunately, it's time to shut down this edition of the Factor This Policy Cast, presented and always by uh our friends over at Advanced Energy United. I want to thank you, the listener, for making it this far. I hope you took something away from the program. If so, please like, subscribe, leave a comment wherever you get your podcasts. And a special thank you to Elizabeth and to Leia for sticking around and sharing their insights with all of us here in the factor this audience. Thank you so much. Uh, I learned a lot and I had a lot of fun, and I think we can actually make some money off of some of the ideas we came up with today. And I'm not talking about the B2G stuff. I'm talking about I'm talking about t-shirt sales.

SPEAKER_02 54:47

If anyone gets to the end, we should just send them a t-shirt that says I'm a great asset.

SPEAKER_00 54:52

Uh listen, I'm gonna take it to my bosses. We got a small team over on Factor This. I just gotta convince one or two people, and we could probably make this a reality.

SPEAKER_02 55:00

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 55:01

I like I like where our heads are at here. We'll have to have you both uh back on the program to brainstorm again sometime. But until then, all of you, please uh be good. Leave a little feedback if you enjoyed the show, and don't forget, we do this policy cast uh every other Thursday, so stick around for future episodes. We'll be sinking our teeth into the meaty policy topics that influence the energy ecosphere. Until that time, uh be good, people, and be good grit assets out there.